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Corey Fumimasa
Kiith Paktu Curatores Veritatis Alliance
468
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 21:38:00 -
[1] - Quote
This issue has come up several times in many different guises. I think the important thing that we all take from it is that podding your enemies is important. It balances the game and ads a level of tactical consideration that encourages combined arms fleets. And not just the occasional "hey grab that pod." But rather as common practice that is well worth devoting resources to.
Bubble the outgate and keep a couple of destroyers there and you will potentially double your ISK destroyed and efficiency scores. -áKick ass soundtrack and Eve Pewpew http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gvc4KljpRGI |
Corey Fumimasa
Kiith Paktu Curatores Veritatis Alliance
471
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 01:42:00 -
[2] - Quote
Destiny Corrupted wrote:It's a fair point about implants, but we're not complaining about implants here. If a person chooses to fly a frigate in 0.0 with +4s in his head, that's entirely on his conscience. Paying fifty million for a new clone is absurd though.
Wearing expensive implants is a choice. A decision that carries benefits and liabilities.
Skilling up a PvP character to a point that is difficult to pay for is a choice. A decision that has benefits and liabilities.
If your clones are too expensive then just use the free alpha clone for a while, you will save billions. -áKick ass soundtrack and Eve Pewpew http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gvc4KljpRGI |
Corey Fumimasa
Kiith Paktu Curatores Veritatis Alliance
471
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 02:17:00 -
[3] - Quote
Destiny Corrupted wrote:Corey Fumimasa wrote:Destiny Corrupted wrote:It's a fair point about implants, but we're not complaining about implants here. If a person chooses to fly a frigate in 0.0 with +4s in his head, that's entirely on his conscience. Paying fifty million for a new clone is absurd though. Wearing expensive implants is a choice. A decision that carries benefits and liabilities. Skilling up a PvP character to a point that is difficult to pay for is a choice. A decision that has benefits and liabilities. If your clones are too expensive then just use the free alpha clone for a while, you will save billions. Once again, just because you're space-rich, doesn't mean other people are, even if they've been playing for a long time. A player shouldn't be punished for having lots of skill points. I'm not saying he should be rewarded either, just that he shouldn't be punished. For the love of everything nice, why would you force a player who only wants to pvp into grinding extra cash to pay NPCs for the privilege? They make up such a tiny percentage of the population as it is already, so why are you so adamant on not stopping to drive them away entirely? Can you simply not stomach the idea of pvp in EVE? For a while I thought that you were an alt of someone who is metagaming this issue. Now I just think that you don't understand.
"Eve pvp will die and no one will dare to fight anymore if clones remain expensive. Subscribers will be lost and the servers will close! oh noes!!!"
I have made many mistakes while playing Eve, and lost a lot of ISK because of them. I have played very conservatively and lost a lot of ISK because of that. Those choices all have benefits and liabilities.
The game is as advertised, to come here whining about how unfair and difficult it is after playing for 100million skill points is just bizarre. What game did you think that you were playing? -áKick ass soundtrack and Eve Pewpew http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gvc4KljpRGI |
Corey Fumimasa
Kiith Paktu Curatores Veritatis Alliance
471
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 02:48:00 -
[4] - Quote
Destiny Corrupted wrote: Kid, you have four credits in debate from the University of Phoenix Online or something? I never said any of those things, so don't make a quote and attribute it to me. It's crass.
How many times do I have to repeat myself that not everyone, even among 100m SP+ pilots, flies big expensive ships into combat? Do you genuinely not understand why having an NPC entity charge someone 45 million iSK for the privilege of having some frigate fun in 0.0 is a bad idea?
I don't care if you fight in a frigate or not. I hope that you don't actually.
You and all those like you have made a monumental mistake. You have skilled a combat pilot to a point that is uncomfortable to pay for. That is a weakness and a failure on your part. And now you want it to go away.
If you just want some easy money good fights then start a new char and join R-V-B or Brave Newbies, have all the fights that you want for short money.
-áKick ass soundtrack and Eve Pewpew http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gvc4KljpRGI |
Corey Fumimasa
Kiith Paktu Curatores Veritatis Alliance
471
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 03:13:00 -
[5] - Quote
Destiny Corrupted wrote:I have two triple-digit characters active right now, but clone costs don't affect me because I don't lose pods doing what I do. Doesn't mean I'll stop fighting for what makes sense, though.
But it's okay, continue attacking the player instead of the argument. I'm sure that will do wonders for your own.
The argument has already happened "kid". https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=200343&p=3
From a game balance point clone prices should go up. Mudflation and power creep are both limited by very expensive clone costs. Those factors are far more important to the long term health of the game than entitlement issues of people playing for the win but terrified of the challenge. -áKick ass soundtrack and Eve Pewpew http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gvc4KljpRGI |
Corey Fumimasa
Kiith Paktu Curatores Veritatis Alliance
471
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 03:36:00 -
[6] - Quote
Whats the best way to win a fight vs a kiter that you can't catch Liang? -áKick ass soundtrack and Eve Pewpew http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gvc4KljpRGI |
Corey Fumimasa
Kiith Paktu Curatores Veritatis Alliance
471
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 04:33:00 -
[7] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Corey Fumimasa wrote:Mudflation and power creep are both limited by very expensive clone costs. I don't know what's sadder, the fact that you can't see how clone costs are detrimental to the game or the fact that you believe this.
High clone costs are detrimental to high SP characters. Those characters have very substantial advantages. The cost of clones dampens those advantages, in effect limiting the difference between old and new players.
To remove them would further separate old and new characters/alliances, and exacerbate the aforementioned issues of mudflation and creep. It would be like giving all players a 20% bonus to their current SP, pushing the highest skilled characters even further ahead.
There will come a point at which the newest players have no way to effect the older players, and at that point you are not playing on a single shard, rather 2 or 3 shards that are on the same server.
I for one want to have more competition, not less, even if my char wont be as ubber as I want him to be right this instant. -áKick ass soundtrack and Eve Pewpew http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gvc4KljpRGI |
Corey Fumimasa
Kiith Paktu Curatores Veritatis Alliance
471
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 04:49:00 -
[8] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Corey Fumimasa wrote:[High clone costs are detrimental to high SP characters. Those characters have very substantial advantages. What advantages are those?
Options and wealth.
Tippia wrote:Corey Fumimasa wrote: There will come a point at which the newest players have no way to effect the older players
Not really, no. The level cap already ensures this. An alpha clone character could win a 1 v 1 vs an Omicron clone, but the Omicron wont worry much about the loss. We should all be scared of one another. Once the outcome is certain then the mystery is gone. -áKick ass soundtrack and Eve Pewpew http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gvc4KljpRGI |
Corey Fumimasa
Kiith Paktu Curatores Veritatis Alliance
471
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 10:51:00 -
[9] - Quote
Destiny Corrupted wrote:And once again someone advocates saving money on clones by locking yourself out of a whole subset of available ships. ..edited out snarky comment.... You are not "locked out" in any way shape or form. It sounds like loosing your pod would sting a little bit, that is a good thing, working as intended. -áKick ass soundtrack and Eve Pewpew http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gvc4KljpRGI |
Corey Fumimasa
Kiith Paktu Curatores Veritatis Alliance
471
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 11:02:00 -
[10] - Quote
Destiny Corrupted wrote: I'm gonna go ahead and say that you're trying to play devil's advocate here, but you're not very good at it. Your arguments consist of advocating something that's entirely impossible and regurgitated statements made by people who by and large have already been defeated.
It only looks that way because you are tired and probably a little buzzed. After you sleep a bit and get back into Eve the cold hard reality of your poorly built combat character and the consequences of that build will still be there.
This thread will end like all the others before it; with cries of 'thats not fair!" and "its bad for Eve!" and "I didn't want to play your stupid game anyway!" -áKick ass soundtrack and Eve Pewpew http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gvc4KljpRGI |
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Corey Fumimasa
Kiith Paktu Curatores Veritatis Alliance
471
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 11:07:00 -
[11] - Quote
Destiny Corrupted wrote:When I lose my pod, I'm more worried about the billions of implants than the clone cost.
You can't seriously come and complain about 50 million ISK clone costs and then brag about how you PvP in a billion ISK implant set.
-áKick ass soundtrack and Eve Pewpew http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gvc4KljpRGI |
Corey Fumimasa
Kiith Paktu Curatores Veritatis Alliance
471
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 11:16:00 -
[12] - Quote
Destiny Corrupted wrote:Corey Fumimasa wrote:Destiny Corrupted wrote:When I lose my pod, I'm more worried about the billions of implants than the clone cost. You can't seriously come and complain about 50 million ISK clone costs and then brag about how you PvP in a billion ISK implant set. Because I can't support an important cause if it doesn't affect me, right?
I have said all along that you do not understand the issue. It doesn't surprise me that you personally are not affected by it.
-áKick ass soundtrack and Eve Pewpew http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gvc4KljpRGI |
Corey Fumimasa
Kiith Paktu Curatores Veritatis Alliance
471
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 11:44:00 -
[13] - Quote
Character development is a long term game that is part of Eve. Some people choose train everything on one character. That has great benefits in terms of versatility, logistics, and time spent moving between characters. The only drawback that style has is really clone costs.
Other people have played the game for years and used all three characters on their accounts. They had to train basic skills on all three chars, and have a much trickier logistics problem to deal with. The benefit to this type of account is that you can keep your combat characters in hot spots and leave the farmers in their mines or fields or whatever.
Both strategies are good, they each have advantages and disadvantages. I think option #1 is a bit more popular because it is simpler and the main drawback is clone cost. Which has been significantly reduced over the years by inflation. In fact I wonder if the rate of inflation was accounted for when they choose a slightly accelerating curve for those costs.
At any rate if the clone cost drawback is removed then the game has been simplified. Another option for strategy and implementation has been lost. I like the complicated long game, it is part of what makes Eve interesting.
And for people like myself who maintain separate chars and come to these threads to enjoy the tears it would be very unfair if clone costs were reduced. I might have to stop playing Eve and go to highsec and cancl my alt subs, yeah I would throw a batshit crazy hissy fit and invite all the other people who were in the same boat, we would whine and cry and complain until we got something that we want.
Or maybe not. I guess I would just keep playing. -áKick ass soundtrack and Eve Pewpew http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gvc4KljpRGI |
Corey Fumimasa
Kiith Paktu Curatores Veritatis Alliance
471
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 11:55:00 -
[14] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Danni stark wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Why must they be punished for having more SP? That's a question none of you supporters have answered. actions and consequences, and all that. I'm asking for a logical justification, not buzzwords and rhetoric. No one is being punished. There are advantages and disadvantages to having 1 main character.
You only have to train core once and you don't have to move items between chars or log out and then log back in. You do have to pay clone costs for SP's that are not entirely used in a specific fight.
But even those unused skill points have an impact. They create uncertainty and allow greater flexibility when choosing a ship and weapons.
The 30 million usable SP's per ship is kind of an illusion that way. Take a ship that has no turret bonus bonus like the Myrmidon, a 100 million SP char can dock up and come back out w t2 pulse lasers or t2 artillery if the situation calls for it, that flexibility is an advantage. Those SP's are valuable even if they are not currently in use and they must be accounted for in order that the game have coherency and balance.
The 50mil for a high end clone is actually a great value.
-áKick ass soundtrack and Eve Pewpew http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gvc4KljpRGI |
Corey Fumimasa
Kiith Paktu Curatores Veritatis Alliance
471
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 12:11:00 -
[15] - Quote
Destiny Corrupted wrote: The "using all three character slots" thing only delays the inevitable, bro. What are you going to tell us next? To get more accounts?
But at least you follow your own advice, eh? I want to say I'm surprised to see a CVA guy split his training time equally across all his characters, but I'd be a massive liar.
Skill up a small ship pilot to 30 million points and leave him there. He will always be there sitting in a hanger in the right ship ready to go. Its not that complicated.
The arguments to do away with clone costs all come down to "Its irritating switching chars and I don't want to retrain core and I don't like it."
I personally don't actually like grinding ISK, I'm not asking that ISK be removed as a game dynamic. Its part of the game and the "work" part of getting ISK is part of what makes combat exciting and fun. To diminish the potential for loss in any way would change Eve. Perhaps my hands wouldn't shake and I wouldn't experience the great feelings of victory or success if it is made easier.
Maintaining the pain of loss in a game is perhaps CCP's greatest achievement. I like playing the game their way. Making combat cheaper so that there is more of it would make the experience of Eve combat cheaper. No reason for that. -áKick ass soundtrack and Eve Pewpew http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gvc4KljpRGI |
Corey Fumimasa
Kiith Paktu Curatores Veritatis Alliance
471
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 12:14:00 -
[16] - Quote
Cipher7 wrote:pussnheels wrote:well lets be rational , if you been playing for many years and reached ter100 mil sp long time ago and you still can not afford the clone upgrade costs , you must have done something wrong Not really. It's not like there's a "Isk Printing Level 5" skill. You still have to either go out and rat, or sit in a market playing the 1 cent game, or PI or what have you. After about 10 million sp you have all the same money-making options as a player with 150 million sp, the difference being they can fly all 4 races and you can fly 1 race.
Seems to me that being able to fly 4 races is like having more options than someone who can only fly 1 race.
-áKick ass soundtrack and Eve Pewpew http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gvc4KljpRGI |
Corey Fumimasa
Kiith Paktu Curatores Veritatis Alliance
471
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 12:55:00 -
[17] - Quote
Lets look at it from another angle; clone costs are a pain that gets more painful as you skill up. This "pain" is part of what balances the equation of older players v newer ones. But it has some issues as far as game playability. So lets say clone costs get reduced (which will probably happen) and theorize about what, if anything, will replace that weight on the scale.
For instance they could start charging a fee for storage. So that older players who have accumulated more stuff would pay more.
Or they could base highsec docking rights on SP's, so that high sp chars could not dock in the highest security systems.
Or they could do nothing, just drop clone costs a bit and call it a day. The sink effect probably wouldn't change much as people get in more fights and get a bit riskier with their less expensive clones.
All three ideas are kind of bad but you get the idea. Is this balance between old and new chars important and how can it be balanced if clone costs are removed or lowered. -áKick ass soundtrack and Eve Pewpew http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gvc4KljpRGI |
Corey Fumimasa
Kiith Paktu Curatores Veritatis Alliance
473
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 15:04:00 -
[18] - Quote
This thread and the others like it have been taken up by CCP. Clone cost got a minor adjustment down and they are considering more in the near future. Removing clone costs is a terrible idea.
I spent some time writing an elevator rebutal and put it on the Dev thread here https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3031935#post3031935
Please swing by and give that a thumbs up so that the devs notice it and see that there are at least a few people who enjoy the balanced game and want to see more interaction not less. -áKick ass soundtrack and Eve Pewpew http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gvc4KljpRGI |
Corey Fumimasa
Kiith Paktu Curatores Veritatis Alliance
483
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 00:53:00 -
[19] - Quote
Destiny Corrupted wrote:I never said I want to control NPC pricing. I said that prices should be lower, because the overall perception between the majority of people who are in the business of losing pods on a regular basis (read: 0.0 pvpers) think they're too high for high-SP character. The whys have already been talked about in detail in the previous pages.
The alternative is to make clones a player-driven service, like pretty much every other service in the game, aside from skill books and insurance, plus some other very minor ones.
The majority of players with well designed and implemented character concepts think that clone costs should be higher. Cheap clones are an advantage to those who want a win and not a challenge. There's actually some other games on the market that specialize in that feeling.
Eve is an experiment in how "real" a virtual world can be made to feel. You wont get that with circus rides and kiddy shows.
-áKick ass soundtrack and Eve Pewpew http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gvc4KljpRGI |
Corey Fumimasa
Kiith Paktu Curatores Veritatis Alliance
483
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 01:05:00 -
[20] - Quote
You speak like a consumer who demands satisfaction because you paid for a product and you are entitled to it. This mindset leads to overconsumption as people cannot ever be satisfied by passive entertainment, they continually consume in order to sate the hunger.
Try to view Eve as a great experiment, a journey, that we all have the privilege of taking together. revel in that, and soak up the possibilities that it can realize and present. You will be thinner but not so hungry perhaps. -áKick ass soundtrack and Eve Pewpew http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gvc4KljpRGI |
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Corey Fumimasa
Kiith Paktu Curatores Veritatis Alliance
484
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 01:35:00 -
[21] - Quote
I'm good with player crafted clones. lets say a beta clone would require 3000 tritanium and a corpse, and a Phi would require 3 corpses and 6 melted nano ribbons. That would actually stop clone costs from being eroded by inflation. +1 -áKick ass soundtrack and Eve Pewpew http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gvc4KljpRGI |
Corey Fumimasa
Kiith Paktu Curatores Veritatis Alliance
484
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 01:46:00 -
[22] - Quote
Destiny Corrupted wrote:It's progress, though I don't think adding corpses into the formula would be a good idea, since there aren't many to begin with, and looting them is problematic. People would end up farming throwaway alts for them anyway.
One thing I would insist upon, though, is that the formula be some kind of hyperbolic function (rises quickly and then tapers off). You are actually not in a position to insist on anything. -áKick ass soundtrack and Eve Pewpew http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gvc4KljpRGI |
Corey Fumimasa
Kiith Paktu Curatores Veritatis Alliance
484
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 02:03:00 -
[23] - Quote
Destiny Corrupted wrote:I absolutely am.
For a while I thought that you were an alt of someone who is metagaming this issue. Now I just think that you don't understand.
"Eve pvp will die and no one will dare to fight anymore if clones remain expensive. Subscribers will be lost and the servers will close! oh noes!!!"
I have made many mistakes while playing Eve, and lost a lot of ISK because of them. I have played very conservatively and lost a lot of ISK because of that. Those choices all have benefits and liabilities.
The game is as advertised, to come here whining about how unfair and difficult it is after playing for 100million skill points is just bizarre. What game did you think that you were playing?
-áKick ass soundtrack and Eve Pewpew http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gvc4KljpRGI |
Corey Fumimasa
Kiith Paktu Curatores Veritatis Alliance
484
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 02:16:00 -
[24] - Quote
OfBalance wrote: I like this idea. In regards to inflation, in general, however; there's no stopping it when isk faucets are unlimited. (And frankly there's no way to get rid of unlimited isk faucets unless CCP is willing to pull isk from idle accounts and return it to the economy by some method. The only one that's obvious is strictly verboten, so I think that's here to stay.)
Earlier you mentioned that clones as sinks are not really affected by lowering clone costs. I think you are spot on there, lower clone costs will mean more lost clones and so the sink will stay balanced.
In fact I will go so far as to say that sinks in general aren't much of an issue. I'm sure CCP can figure out some way to pull ISK out of the game if they need to.
What clones do is help to close the power gap between high SP chars and low SP ones. It reinforces the idea of specialization and keeps everyone a bit nervous about combat.
The route that CCP seems to be taking is one of removing limitations from the top of the player base and buffing the hell out of the bottom. I would rather they heavily constrain the top and buff the bottom a bit, thats not going to happen though, too many QQ players atm.
-áKick ass soundtrack and Eve Pewpew http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gvc4KljpRGI |
Corey Fumimasa
Kiith Paktu Curatores Veritatis Alliance
485
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 02:49:00 -
[25] - Quote
lollerwaffle wrote: So you're saying that a high SP player is making a poor choice when he wants to engage in some t1 frigate pvp? You're saying that high SP players should only fly bling ships, or high SP ships? Not everyone wants to sit in a cap/supercap all day, you know?
Its a poor choice to skill a frig pilot up to 150 million SP's. It was a mistake and anyone who did so is going to pay for it. -áKick ass soundtrack and Eve Pewpew http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gvc4KljpRGI |
Corey Fumimasa
Kiith Paktu Curatores Veritatis Alliance
485
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 13:23:00 -
[26] - Quote
lollerwaffle wrote: So, someone points out a game mechanic which might be detrimental to game play, and you disagree by default because there are also crybabys whining on the same topic? Or do you merely disagree? If so, why do you constantly bring in whiners and ranters into your posts?
Actually, would you mind answering some questions for me, for the sake of discussion? 1. What's your current SP total (on your main/alt whatever)? 2. Do you PVP? If so, where? 2. Why do YOU think the current clone prices should stay as they are? 3. Do you believe that higher SP = richer pilot?
The argument for reduced clone costs is based around increasing PVP options for high SP characters with the intent of increasing overall PvP.
This assumes that PvP is a good thing and that more of it would be better for the game. Not everyone wants to see more PvP and it hasn't ever been "proven" that the current levels and opportunities for combat are too low. I am a PvPer myself and I think the opportunities for combat are about right, maybe they could be a little higher.
However the far more limiting factor for PvP is power creep. You see this when a young corp gets wardeced by an old one. They get massacred a few times and then they dock up. The older players are pushing 3 times the DPS, tank, cap etc from the younger players just based on the compounding factors of good skills, good gear, boosters and implants. One of the few limits on the older players is the cost of their clones. To remove this will further widen the gap.
So while reducing the price of clones would open more pvp options for the highest skilled characters it would at the same time exasperate the problem of power creep. I think there would be no net gain in PvP options game wide from this change.
1. I'm not posting my SP total. I think the mean value in game of active pilots is 30 to 50 million. 2. yes, null and low. I'm terrible at getting my pods out and lose a lot of them. 2 the 2nd. Because people that skilled combat pilots to a level that is difficult to pay for have had a lot of convenience for doing so. I think clone costs are a good balance for that. Also I don't think there will be a net gain in PvP from this change, although it may look that way because sooo many players at the bottom have become completely averse to it. 3.I think that high SP pilots have more options for grinding ISK, this makes it easier to find one that is enjoyable. Where as low SP pilots tend to specialize or accept lower income along a wide range of options. -áKick ass soundtrack and Eve Pewpew http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gvc4KljpRGI |
Corey Fumimasa
Kiith Paktu Curatores Veritatis Alliance
485
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 13:29:00 -
[27] - Quote
And highSP chars already have options for small ship PvP; go fight in lowsec or wardec someone and roam highsec. Theres no bubbles so really you should not be loosing many pods. -áKick ass soundtrack and Eve Pewpew http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gvc4KljpRGI |
Corey Fumimasa
Kiith Paktu Curatores Veritatis Alliance
485
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 13:37:00 -
[28] - Quote
Destiny Corrupted wrote:"Enjoyable grind" is an oxymoron. No method (aside maybe from scamming) of making ISK is enjoyable for its own sake, because of how shallow this game is. The players who have done nothing but pve are unaware of this fact, because they never needed to spend money on something that wasn't necessary to make more of it. We've already established that more options doesn't equate to more efficiency. Thus the extra "options" thing is of no use to a high-SP player who needs to make ISK solely for the purpose of having clones to pvp in.
Resource management is a great part of Eve, it gives meaning to combat and allows a wider range of gamer to interact. FPS console games do a much better job of presenting a straight up brawl. It seems like the players who want to see clone costs reduced would like to see more of that type of gaming in Eve. -áKick ass soundtrack and Eve Pewpew http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gvc4KljpRGI |
Corey Fumimasa
Kiith Paktu Curatores Veritatis Alliance
485
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 14:02:00 -
[29] - Quote
Destiny Corrupted wrote: Why should players ...edited for space... be precluded from whole sections of space just because they don't want to spend hours sculpting their wallets in solitude? ...
For the same reason that players must train and save up ISK to buy better ships. The game environment is defined by its limits as much as by its breadth. It is frustrating not to be abble to go everywhere or to fly everything, but that frustration is exactly the thing that makes it fulfilling when you finally figure out how to get there.
Destiny Corrupted wrote: Why should players who only want to create content (for themselves and for others) by seeking pvp opportunities
I think that many of the proponents of clone cost reduction are after this exact thing. However content creation in Eve is also about destroying something that someone else built, not all of the advocates are benign.
And there are some very important balance issues with regards to Sov warfare, for large old alliances this change is a boon that will allow them to be more aggressive in future campaigns.
Its interesting that SW null got very dangerous a few days before the 30% drop! lol, let me find my tin foil hat =-P -áKick ass soundtrack and Eve Pewpew http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gvc4KljpRGI |
Corey Fumimasa
Kiith Paktu Curatores Veritatis Alliance
486
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 20:04:00 -
[30] - Quote
Angelhunter wrote: All that information is great, but none of it is in real time as compared to that roaming group with a dictor who just rolled into your path. I fly with a lot more expensive implants than +3's at all times because i can afford to. I can also afford my clone costs without any issues.
My Issue is that with as much money as we already spend on our ships, mods, and implants, not too mention the amount of time and money we have given this game to get where we are, can we at least be given a break on our clone costs?
Many people in support of lowering clone costs claim to have no trouble paying for them. There's also more alts posting on the "remove clone cost BW" And the main issue often comes down to a sense of "justice" about clone costs; why are high SP characters being "punished" is a phrase that comes up a lot.
-áKick ass soundtrack and Eve Pewpew http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gvc4KljpRGI |
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Corey Fumimasa
Kiith Paktu Curatores Veritatis Alliance
487
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 21:06:00 -
[31] - Quote
Six Six Six wrote: Alts have always posted on these forums as long as I can remember (2007) although did play from 2005 although never used to visit the forums back then.
Must admit would have liked to have played from 2003, but didn't know the game existed back then.
Yeah, clone costs are too expensive, I'm glad you recognise that fact.
So when they get reduced at least you won't be too disappointed.
Oh I'm not going to be disappointed 6, I don't think there is a special CCP monitoring department that reads through all these threads and then makes recommendation about game direction based on the most successful/persevering posters.
I participate in the forums because you can learn a lot about other gamers here; what they like or dislike and how the game makes them feel. Just good conversation if you like games.
The alts are interesting in that it hides a bit about the person behind the keyboard, that in itself says something about the them. And the tone of their speaking along with their tendencies to group on one side or the other of an issue provide several more data points.
I don't mind the alts, in actuality most people here post with an alt, even its its just one step away from their real selves =-) -áKick ass soundtrack and Eve Pewpew http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gvc4KljpRGI |
Corey Fumimasa
Kiith Paktu Curatores Veritatis Alliance
487
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 22:10:00 -
[32] - Quote
Angelhunter wrote: Sometimes it does feel like a bit of a punishment, i have played since 2003, won't ever hide behind an alt, and will always speak my mind.
i like what CCP has done in terms of making the game more new player friendly, but most of the subs in this game are long term players and their alt accounts. A change as simple as lowering clone costs will only make the majority of players happy.
Perhaps if not even reducing the cost of all clones as much as say one you hit 80m or 100m SP's the clone cost doesn't go any further beyond that point? Not too mention that a say 40m SP character specialized in a ship that a 140m SP character can fly the exact same suffers less of a loss than the 140m SP player when podded. How exactly is that fair?
Its fair because the 140 million char is bringing more to the table in terms of options that the younger player will have to guess about.
For instance a 1 year old in a myrm may be pretty good, but you can make a good guess that he has good armor skills, good drones, and if he is a pvper will have auto cannons a pve guy will have rails. Thats just what he is going to have skilled up.
The 140 million char could have anything under the hood; passive shield with medium neuts, artillery, and speed mods to a straight up blaster basher x3 rep fit. This unknown is worth a lot from a tactical standpoint. And in order to balance things somewhat you need to have some kind of points, in the case of Eve it is clone costs.
Its not the best way to balance things, but its one of the few game mechanics that does. If they want to remove it I think we need to talk about other balances first.
-áKick ass soundtrack and Eve Pewpew http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gvc4KljpRGI |
Corey Fumimasa
Kiith Paktu Curatores Veritatis Alliance
487
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 23:24:00 -
[33] - Quote
OfBalance wrote:The hypothetical arguments about what a vet ought to have (monetary, experience, or otherwise) don't even constitute an argument, really. Either vets (and players in general) respond to incentives and calculate their behavior based on the punitive cost adjustment of their clones, or they don't.
Even if the cost is negligible, it is still effectiely a disincentive to pvp for a portion of the population. So either disincentives don't matter and clone costs should be able to go as high as ccp wants for the purpose of pulling more isk out of the economy, or they do matter and this is a terrible place for an isk sink.
Its pretty small as a sink and reduction of the cost will probably lead to more pod death anyway, so it should even out. If it were only the sink effect this could easily be removed.
The issues that I have seen with merit for keeping or raising clone cost either revolve around;
-Normalizing the feeling of risk for pilots of different skill levels. This is the hard core PvPers who want glorious kills with big numbers that will hurt. They want Eve combat to remain scary and dangerous because they enjoy it that way. That group will often point out that the cost for Eve combat has come down over the years as ever denser sources of ISK have been uncovered and pushed into the economy. So in real terms the clones and the loss of combat in general is less than it was 5 or 6 years ago.
-The cost on high level clones is one of the few balancing factors for new players v older players. Power creep and mudflation are 2 of the biggest problems in closed game worlds like Eve. CCP has kept inflation down to a dull roar. But power creep is starting to become serious despite Eves broad and fairly shallow skill tree. And players being overly distanced in terms of power levels is far more damaging to PvP than cost being a few % points off for one group or another.
The idea that clone costs are punishment is a perception, all the arguments for lowering clone cost follow this trend.
The inability of less powerful players to have an impact on more powerful ones is a quantifiable value that should be addressed before the lesser issue of percieved injustice.
-áKick ass soundtrack and Eve Pewpew http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gvc4KljpRGI |
Corey Fumimasa
Kiith Paktu Curatores Veritatis Alliance
489
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 01:28:00 -
[34] - Quote
OfBalance wrote: Punishment being your loaded substitute for disincentive, which is indeed the case. The argument doesn't change based on relative cost or your choice of words. You either have some mechanic that encourages pvp or you have something that discourages pvp. It's that simple.
"Punishment" isn't my word; I took that directly from several posts in these threads. It is a feeling that is held by many people who oppose the clone cost mechanic.
To me rules and limits in a game are the individual puzzle pieces that define the play area. Disincentives for certain actions and consequences for others balanced by rewards create a dynamic that makes gaming interesting.
The game is a continual process of pushing oneself past disincentives like resource depletion in order to set up the potential for victory. The threat of failure and potential loss competing with ones attention and focus as the brass ring is just coming into view is a core component of the game. Going through this process creates the feelings of dread and exultation that are so pronounced in Eve.
So disincentives are a part of the game and must not be removed. They can be balanced by greater reward if they are too strong, but to remove them would erode what is actually a very delicate and hard to attain formula for in game dynamics. -áKick ass soundtrack and Eve Pewpew http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gvc4KljpRGI |
Corey Fumimasa
Kiith Paktu Curatores Veritatis Alliance
490
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 02:17:00 -
[35] - Quote
OfBalance wrote:
And my argument is that they in-fact make the game less interesting. If you want to make a legitimate counter-argument, I would start with -why- you think that this disincentive makes the game interesting.
Yes, it is a consequence, but just because something is a consequence of your game actions does not validate it as a good mechanic worth preserving. AOE doomsday and old sov mechanics (not that the new sov. is much better) had a hell of a lot of consequences, but it wasn't making the game more interesting. It simply made the game more tedious.\
My point has been that it obviously discourages pvp, I believe that is the "interesting," part of the game. So your argument must be that discouraging pvp, to some degree, makes the game more interesting. And thus I really can't understand how you hold that position.
Disincentives are interesting because they remind players of the risk. They set the stage for loss or victory. Like a wager at a poker table it lets you know that "the game has started, there will be a winner and a loser here." This transitional phase of forcing oneself to do something that is counter to our natures excites the fight or flight reflex which is what makes Eve exciting.
And the Idea of removing all disincentives to PvP just for the sake of PvP has no brakes, no stopping point. Once accepted then ships and mods should be free as working for them is a significant disincentive.
Clone costs discourage PvP for a very small but vocal part of the player base; only those players who have skilled up to very high SP levels, that still want to PvP, and have trouble earning ISK. And even some of those players like the risk / reward system as it stands. Its tough for those people, but the mechanic would be very difficult to scale based on ISK generation, so they are stuck with a one size fits all value.
Also of note; these people have the option to move to empire space where there are no bubbles. There are plenty of fights there. Its not like this precludes all PvP because it can't be overcome, options already exist in game to mitigate clone loss. -áKick ass soundtrack and Eve Pewpew http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gvc4KljpRGI |
Corey Fumimasa
Kiith Paktu Curatores Veritatis Alliance
490
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 02:53:00 -
[36] - Quote
Destiny Corrupted wrote:Disincentives and risk/reward mechanisms are two entirely different things. A disincentive implies that there are no upsides to a particular activity. In a poker game, you're risking your money, but you also get the chance to make more than what you put in. Meanwhile, paying for my expensive clone won't make my ship more effective, or the enemies drop more loot when I kill them, than if I didn't pay for the clone and risked SP loss.
And I really don't see why you keep going back to that area of space preclusion argument when it has been shot down by pretty much every poster in this thread.
I tried to be clear that the act of overcoming a disincentive is what sets the stage for the risk / reward mechanism. They are very different things, and each one serves a purpose.
As far as Empire space; I brought it up because I sensed the implication somewhere that 'clone costs completely remove the option for PvP and there is no way to mitigate that.' That statement is disproved by the Empire argument even if people don't like it.
-áKick ass soundtrack and Eve Pewpew http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gvc4KljpRGI |
Corey Fumimasa
Kiith Paktu Curatores Veritatis Alliance
490
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 03:02:00 -
[37] - Quote
Six Six Six wrote:
You will still lose a ship, implants and a clone albeit the clone at a reduced rate. So what's your problem?
Problem is in a fleet battle not everyone is equal and as such those disincentives you talk about won't effect everyone in the same way as their circumstances are different. Which kind of makes your argument kind of null and void.
Not everyone is equal and so it is very difficult to accurately scale reward and cost to each player. That is true of all these games, it doesn't invalidate the basic formula. Eve has always had strong disincentives to risk, it is a hallmark trait. They may change a bit, but I don't think they are going to go away.
Six Six Six wrote:
I'm starting to think he's just having a bit of fun trolling.
I'm spending some time on these posts because the ISD's went through and purged GD earlier. They left this one up which kind of surprised me. It might get a read through.
-áKick ass soundtrack and Eve Pewpew http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gvc4KljpRGI |
Corey Fumimasa
Kiith Paktu Curatores Veritatis Alliance
492
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 16:52:00 -
[38] - Quote
Tippia wrote:fuer0n wrote:it's why ccp originally gave you 3 char slots. GǪexcept that if the only rational answer is Gǣget an altGǥ, then that's pretty much all the proof you need that something isn't working properly.
Thats not true at all Tipia. Eve has no class restrictions but that doesn't mean that one character should learn all the skills and do everything. Part of the fun of the game is building characters into existing niches.
Pirates build themselves out of the highsec dweller niche, faction warfare pilots build themselves out of options to mission for opposing factions, and these high SP chars have built themselves out of the frig pilot niche.
The game is working as intended with forced specialization for some activities.
-áKick ass soundtrack and Eve Pewpew http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gvc4KljpRGI |
Corey Fumimasa
Kiith Paktu Curatores Veritatis Alliance
492
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 20:21:00 -
[39] - Quote
Six Six Six wrote: Have you ever thought about fun, or even RP.
I'm not interesting in kill stats or patting myself on the back that's all pretty much irrelevant to me.
Six Six Six wrote:
I've already told you, I can't force you accept the answer, but that is the answer.
We are only talking about reducing clone costs nothing else (although I'd get rid of learning implants too, but won't go into that here). So you will still have to grind some isk, although even that doesn't matter too much unless you want to grind the isk as you could simply buy and sell PLEX.
PvP have meaning, that depends on how you view it as an individual, I don't need material things to give meaning to it.
I think some people feel they need something to lose before they will try their best, but that's simply not true.
You don't need 150 million skill points to go out in Eve and RP and have fun in mindless PvP. If you want to fight cheap and not be concerned about ISK then join FW. It is specifically designed for players like you.
If you don't want to play the bigger game then don't play it. -áKick ass soundtrack and Eve Pewpew http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gvc4KljpRGI |
Corey Fumimasa
Kiith Paktu Curatores Veritatis Alliance
492
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 20:32:00 -
[40] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Corey Fumimasa wrote:You don't need 150 million skill points to go out in Eve and RP and have fun in mindless PvP. If you want to fight cheap and not be concerned about ISK then join FW. It is specifically designed for players like you.
If you don't want to play the bigger game then don't play it. GǪso you agree, then, that this whole GÇ£more SP GåÆ forced higher costGÇ¥ mechanic is completely nonsensical.
I think that it doesn't make sense to players who log in to look at their great and powerful character to feel good about themselves because their toon is all ubber. -áKick ass soundtrack and Eve Pewpew http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gvc4KljpRGI |
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Corey Fumimasa
Kiith Paktu Curatores Veritatis Alliance
492
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 20:50:00 -
[41] - Quote
Tippia wrote:
The point is, what you just said: GÇ£If you don't want to play the bigger game then don't play itGÇ¥ GÇö it's an option that is being mechanically denied people for no useful, rational, sensible, or adequately explained reason.
Its being "denied" to them because its something that they are not interested in. They want a smaller simpler game.
They feel good about themselves while ship spinning and looking over their fits. Then they undock and get blasted by someone who is here to play the whole game. They then QQ because the act of grinding all that ISK back shatters the illusion that they have created something of value. -áKick ass soundtrack and Eve Pewpew http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gvc4KljpRGI |
Corey Fumimasa
Kiith Paktu Curatores Veritatis Alliance
492
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 21:05:00 -
[42] - Quote
Destiny Corrupted wrote:Mangold wrote:I WANT PEOPLE TO NOT UNDOCK IN A NEW SHIP BECAUSE THEY CAN'T AFFORD A NEW SHIP OR POD. Uh, what? You really don't see how that's possibly the worst outcome for EVE Online? Meaningful pvp is one thing, but using that line of logic, why not just advocate permanent character death upon podding instead? That would certainly prevent people from undocking to fight, as you so desperately desire.
Undocking is not an optimal outcome for a small game like Faction Warfare or the various Eve tournaments. But in the greater game it means that you have broken your opponent, which is one of the finest victories in Eve.
*Fear not, they usually recover.
-áKick ass soundtrack and Eve Pewpew http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gvc4KljpRGI |
Corey Fumimasa
Kiith Paktu Curatores Veritatis Alliance
492
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 21:09:00 -
[43] - Quote
Tippia wrote: Notice how the failed analogy you tried earlier has this as a clear distinction: the player can choose to engage in FW or piracy, and can then choose not to. You can't GÇ£un-chooseGÇ¥ your skills or your character age.
Sure they can, just start flying in an alpha grade clone, they will save billions. This is a very harsh solution, but as was pointed out earlier it takes a loooong time to get good at everything. Those characters had plenty of time to see it coming. And like digging out of a bad faction hole it takes effort and work and sacrifice.
-áKick ass soundtrack and Eve Pewpew http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gvc4KljpRGI |
Corey Fumimasa
Kiith Paktu Curatores Veritatis Alliance
492
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 21:29:00 -
[44] - Quote
Destiny Corrupted wrote: How can that possibly be good game design for pvp?
It might not be the best design for a game that revolves around pvp. But for a sandbox it is perfect.
-áKick ass soundtrack and Eve Pewpew http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gvc4KljpRGI |
Corey Fumimasa
Kiith Paktu Curatores Veritatis Alliance
492
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 21:32:00 -
[45] - Quote
Tippia wrote:]Yeah, no. Maybe you should read up on what actually happens if you use an inadequate clone. It's pretty much the opposite of choosing what to do.
They could just admit failure and start over. Failure is still an option in Eve isn't it? -áKick ass soundtrack and Eve Pewpew http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gvc4KljpRGI |
Corey Fumimasa
Kiith Paktu Curatores Veritatis Alliance
492
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 21:42:00 -
[46] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Corey Fumimasa wrote:They could just admit failure and start over. Failure is still an option in Eve isn't it? If by GÇ£theyGÇ¥ you mean CCP, then yes. That's why they've decided to try to figure out how to make it work properly. I always wondered if you really liked Eve. Or if you just stayed because of PLEX or whatever. -áKick ass soundtrack and Eve Pewpew http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gvc4KljpRGI |
Corey Fumimasa
Kiith Paktu Curatores Veritatis Alliance
492
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 21:43:00 -
[47] - Quote
Six Six Six wrote: Are you of those player's that would rather play PvP where your character is actually terminated and you have to start all over?
No.
-áKick ass soundtrack and Eve Pewpew http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gvc4KljpRGI |
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